Comments on: A Reply to David Duhalde from Professor Sheri Berman http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman // Culture. Consciousness. Critical Thought. // Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:10:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: links for 2009-03-12 | Make a Ruckus! http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman/comment-page-1#comment-30817 links for 2009-03-12 | Make a Ruckus! Fri, 13 Mar 2009 06:04:36 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman#comment-30817 [...] A Reply to David Duhalde from Professor Sheri Berman | The Activist [...] [...] A Reply to David Duhalde from Professor Sheri Berman | The Activist [...]

]]> By: Jason Schulman http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman/comment-page-1#comment-30232 Jason Schulman Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:29:34 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman#comment-30232 Chris M. is right about the numbers. However, rhetorically, Mitterand was very radical before the PS won the 1981 elections; he <em>talked </em>about "breaking with capitalism," regardless of whether he actually ever meant it or not. Chris M. is right about the numbers. However, rhetorically, Mitterand was very radical before the PS won the 1981 elections; he talked about “breaking with capitalism,” regardless of whether he actually ever meant it or not.

]]> By: Chris Maisano http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman/comment-page-1#comment-30230 Chris Maisano Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:02:12 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman#comment-30230 Adrian: as far as I know, the French socialists under Mitterrand's leadership never really proposed to undertake a rupture with capitalism, and their economic strategy once they gained power in 1981 was basically Keynesian, though a left-wing variant thereof: nationalizations of the commanding heights of the economy and a variety of fiscal policies intended to encroach on the power of big capital (see Mitterand's 110 Proposals for France). Mitterand also might not have won if there wasn't a big split on the right between supporters of Giscard and those of Chirac, and even so he won with only a bare 51% majority in the second round of voting. In the parliament the PS did have a huge majority coming out of the 1981 elections, but it was inflated by the rules of the French electoral system: in the first round of voting, PS candidates received something like 37% of the vote, which is substantial but doesn't reflect the kind of democratic mandate for socialism that you'd need to pursue a really radical, transformative strategy. Adrian: as far as I know, the French socialists under Mitterrand’s leadership never really proposed to undertake a rupture with capitalism, and their economic strategy once they gained power in 1981 was basically Keynesian, though a left-wing variant thereof: nationalizations of the commanding heights of the economy and a variety of fiscal policies intended to encroach on the power of big capital (see Mitterand’s 110 Proposals for France). Mitterand also might not have won if there wasn’t a big split on the right between supporters of Giscard and those of Chirac, and even so he won with only a bare 51% majority in the second round of voting. In the parliament the PS did have a huge majority coming out of the 1981 elections, but it was inflated by the rules of the French electoral system: in the first round of voting, PS candidates received something like 37% of the vote, which is substantial but doesn’t reflect the kind of democratic mandate for socialism that you’d need to pursue a really radical, transformative strategy.

]]> By: Chris Maisano http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman/comment-page-1#comment-30222 Chris Maisano Tue, 03 Mar 2009 15:38:16 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman#comment-30222 The Red Vienna period was indeed really important, but again even Otto Bauer and the other Austrian socialists who conceived of and pursued this strategy knew that there was no way it could transcend the limits of a capitalist economy, largely because it depended upon capitalist expansion and prosperity for its success. This is from One Hundred Years of Socialism by Donald Sassoon: "Reformist socialism, in Bauer's analysis, had established a protective network (we would now say: the welfare state) around the class it 'represented.' This had a dual effect: it created an objective obstacle to the continuous reorganization of capitalism and was, consequently, objectively anti-capitalist. At the same time, it could not produce a strategy of advance beyond capitalism itself, since one of the conditions of the reformists' popularity was capitalist growth and success." (p.72). The point I'm trying to make is that Berman's critique has more validity than some of us are willing to grant it and that we have a lot of political and intellectual work to do if we can ever hope to come up with a strategy to transcend capitalism.Also, I agree with Adrian's point about the limits of parliamentarism. I suppose the question is whether or not there is any legitimate alternative. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if there is. The Red Vienna period was indeed really important, but again even Otto Bauer and the other Austrian socialists who conceived of and pursued this strategy knew that there was no way it could transcend the limits of a capitalist economy, largely because it depended upon capitalist expansion and prosperity for its success. This is from One Hundred Years of Socialism by Donald Sassoon: “Reformist socialism, in Bauer’s analysis, had established a protective network (we would now say: the welfare state) around the class it ‘represented.’ This had a dual effect: it created an objective obstacle to the continuous reorganization of capitalism and was, consequently, objectively anti-capitalist. At the same time, it could not produce a strategy of advance beyond capitalism itself, since one of the conditions of the reformists’ popularity was capitalist growth and success.” (p.72). The point I’m trying to make is that Berman’s critique has more validity than some of us are willing to grant it and that we have a lot of political and intellectual work to do if we can ever hope to come up with a strategy to transcend capitalism.Also, I agree with Adrian’s point about the limits of parliamentarism. I suppose the question is whether or not there is any legitimate alternative. Unfortunately, I’m not sure if there is.

]]> By: Bhaskar Sunkara http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman/comment-page-1#comment-30206 Bhaskar Sunkara Tue, 03 Mar 2009 05:08:27 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman#comment-30206 Speaking of Austrian Social Democrats, the "Red Vienna" period has a lot of historical significance.<br/><br/>The problem of capital flight and the failure of Mitterrand, which forced him to the lurch to the right after his first few years need to be examined.  I know Harrington wrote on this in "Socialism: Past, Present and Future".  Anyone have some suggested reading on this period?<br/><br/>And he did manage so do some things like abolishing the death penalty and protecting the welfare state. Speaking of Austrian Social Democrats, the “Red Vienna” period has a lot of historical significance.

The problem of capital flight and the failure of Mitterrand, which forced him to the lurch to the right after his first few years need to be examined.  I know Harrington wrote on this in “Socialism: Past, Present and Future”.  Anyone have some suggested reading on this period?

And he did manage so do some things like abolishing the death penalty and protecting the welfare state.

]]> By: Adrian Bleifuss Prados http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman/comment-page-1#comment-30204 Adrian Bleifuss Prados Tue, 03 Mar 2009 05:05:13 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman#comment-30204 Responding to Chris, I think that some relatively mainstream European pinkos -- for example, Mitterrand at one point in his career  -- really were proposing  a radical "rupture with capitalism" and won elections on that platform. Ultimately they failed to realize their unrealistically transformative programs, not because they sold out (though that was usually also the case) but  because of limitations inherent to any parliamentary left operating in the real world (limitations correctly identified by more radical critics more than a century ago). <br/><br/>I think it's impossible to draw any clear line between social democrats and socialists because those terms are politically loaded and vague.  In many Western European countries, the most moderate welfarists and even some all-out neo-liberals might cheerfully describe themselves as socialists (the label is often written right into their party identification), whereas self-styled social democrats, in Austria for example, might retain a certain radical edge. <br/><br/>Was Harold Laski a socialist, a social democrat or a democratic socialist? What about Olof Palme? I don't think it's very useful (or very interesting) to count the shades of red between Karl Marx, Willy Brandt and Gordon Brown and pick a favorite grade of pink. Responding to Chris, I think that some relatively mainstream European pinkos — for example, Mitterrand at one point in his career  — really were proposing  a radical “rupture with capitalism” and won elections on that platform. Ultimately they failed to realize their unrealistically transformative programs, not because they sold out (though that was usually also the case) but  because of limitations inherent to any parliamentary left operating in the real world (limitations correctly identified by more radical critics more than a century ago).

I think it’s impossible to draw any clear line between social democrats and socialists because those terms are politically loaded and vague.  In many Western European countries, the most moderate welfarists and even some all-out neo-liberals might cheerfully describe themselves as socialists (the label is often written right into their party identification), whereas self-styled social democrats, in Austria for example, might retain a certain radical edge.

Was Harold Laski a socialist, a social democrat or a democratic socialist? What about Olof Palme? I don’t think it’s very useful (or very interesting) to count the shades of red between Karl Marx, Willy Brandt and Gordon Brown and pick a favorite grade of pink.

]]> By: Bhaskar Sunkara http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman/comment-page-1#comment-30200 Bhaskar Sunkara Tue, 03 Mar 2009 04:06:12 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman#comment-30200 I take all credit for all the pictures on this blog--- even the ones I didn't find or post.<br/><br/>My use of images.google.com is legendary.  Well it will be legendary when you tell your friends about it and they tell their friends... I take all credit for all the pictures on this blog— even the ones I didn’t find or post.

My use of images.google.com is legendary.  Well it will be legendary when you tell your friends about it and they tell their friends…

]]> By: Jason Schulman http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman/comment-page-1#comment-30198 Jason Schulman Tue, 03 Mar 2009 03:15:12 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman#comment-30198 I accidentally deleted it. I'm going to write a response to David's piece (and Sheri Berman's piece, by extension) at some point. I accidentally deleted it. I’m going to write a response to David’s piece (and Sheri Berman’s piece, by extension) at some point.

]]> By: Chris Maisano http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman/comment-page-1#comment-30189 Chris Maisano Mon, 02 Mar 2009 22:23:46 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman#comment-30189 Where did Jason's last post go? Where did Jason’s last post go?

]]> By: Chris Maisano http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman/comment-page-1#comment-30178 Chris Maisano Mon, 02 Mar 2009 16:43:17 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/a-reply-to-david-duhalde-from-professor-sheri-berman#comment-30178 Jason, fair enough, but I'm not entirely sure the socialist, social democratic, and labor parties that have attained state power during the last century could have really behaved otherwise, even if they had wanted to. None of them ever received an electoral mandate to transcend capitalism and move toward socialism (conceived of as a qualitatively different society). Were they supposed to socialize the means of production when even a significant portion of their own electors (never mind the capitalists and their allies on the right) might have opposed such a move? Besides, neither social democrats nor democratic socialists ever really had an actual vision or plan for what this would actually look like in practice (and that had significant political support) beyond nationalization - the only exception being the Swedish wage earner funds, but that was defeated even though it had the support of the trade unions and the SAP. And until the 1990s, they all operated within the context of the Cold War and an international capitalist political economy led by the United States, which severely constrained their field of action. Some of the criticisms leveled against social democrats that have been made here are unfair when taking historical record and context into account. Jason, fair enough, but I’m not entirely sure the socialist, social democratic, and labor parties that have attained state power during the last century could have really behaved otherwise, even if they had wanted to. None of them ever received an electoral mandate to transcend capitalism and move toward socialism (conceived of as a qualitatively different society). Were they supposed to socialize the means of production when even a significant portion of their own electors (never mind the capitalists and their allies on the right) might have opposed such a move? Besides, neither social democrats nor democratic socialists ever really had an actual vision or plan for what this would actually look like in practice (and that had significant political support) beyond nationalization – the only exception being the Swedish wage earner funds, but that was defeated even though it had the support of the trade unions and the SAP. And until the 1990s, they all operated within the context of the Cold War and an international capitalist political economy led by the United States, which severely constrained their field of action. Some of the criticisms leveled against social democrats that have been made here are unfair when taking historical record and context into account.

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