Comments on: Beyond Good and Evil http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil // Culture. Consciousness. Critical Thought. // Tue, 07 Feb 2012 06:43:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Moore’s War of Position | The Activist http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil/comment-page-1#comment-74233 Moore’s War of Position | The Activist Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:55:30 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil#comment-74233 [...] readers of my infrequently read rants might be surprised to hear me, a denouncer of the moralistic and the messianic in all their forms, say that Michael Moore’s latest film, [...] [...] readers of my infrequently read rants might be surprised to hear me, a denouncer of the moralistic and the messianic in all their forms, say that Michael Moore’s latest film, [...]

]]> By: [N.W.A.’s Second Album, Track Two] | The Activist http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil/comment-page-1#comment-71884 [N.W.A.’s Second Album, Track Two] | The Activist Sat, 03 Oct 2009 09:49:30 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil#comment-71884 [...] underlying point are actually excellent ones.  He is absolutely right in acknowledging that the fault lies with the system, not with these individual police officers, but by the same extension why don’t we show the same [...] [...] underlying point are actually excellent ones.  He is absolutely right in acknowledging that the fault lies with the system, not with these individual police officers, but by the same extension why don’t we show the same [...]

]]> By: The Current Relevance of an Old Debate — The Activist http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil/comment-page-1#comment-42897 The Current Relevance of an Old Debate — The Activist Tue, 02 Jun 2009 21:29:36 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil#comment-42897 [...] posting this essay in response to some of the comments from Bhaskar’s “Beyond Good and Evil” post.  First, I will fess up and say that my arguments are largely derived from the book [...] [...] posting this essay in response to some of the comments from Bhaskar’s “Beyond Good and Evil” post.  First, I will fess up and say that my arguments are largely derived from the book [...]

]]> By: Jason Schulman http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil/comment-page-1#comment-42888 Jason Schulman Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:21:11 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil#comment-42888 I think I'm going to have to write a post on Kautsky, Bernstein, and Luxemburg for this site. I think there are many misconceptions as to what the differences between the three actually were. As to the labor theory of value - or more specifically, the Marxian law of value - a good defense can be found here: http://myweb.lmu.edu/jdevine/notes/Law-of-Value.html I think I’m going to have to write a post on Kautsky, Bernstein, and Luxemburg for this site. I think there are many misconceptions as to what the differences between the three actually were.

As to the labor theory of value – or more specifically, the Marxian law of value – a good defense can be found here: http://myweb.lmu.edu/jdevine/notes/Law-of-Value.html

]]> By: Adrian Bleifuss Prados http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil/comment-page-1#comment-42882 Adrian Bleifuss Prados Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:01:57 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil#comment-42882 I agree with Chris on that second point. In fact, some of the best "useful fictions" come from theory. For example, I'm a big fan of the (very discredited) labor theory of value because I think it makes an important moral point about where "stuff" comes from, even though economists think it's silly. I agree with Chris on that second point. In fact, some of the best “useful fictions” come from theory. For example, I’m a big fan of the (very discredited) labor theory of value because I think it makes an important moral point about where “stuff” comes from, even though economists think it’s silly.

]]> By: Chris Maisano http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil/comment-page-1#comment-42874 Chris Maisano Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:58:40 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil#comment-42874 Bhaskar, who says that an ethical, moral or religious critique of capitalism from the left has to be some sort of fiction? To me, the argument that capitalism degrades the moral worth of persons (and the environment) and contradicts many basic ethical concepts as well as many of the teachings of basically all world religions is just as correct as the best objective, theoretical analysis. While people need to understand why capitalism is flawed in their heads, they need to feel it in their heart and their gut if they're ever going to become committed to actually working for socialism. When I'm involved in any sort of organizing project or demonstration, I'm not thinking primarily of crisis theory or commodity fetishism or something. I'm thinking of the real-world effects that the current regime dishes out to real human beings. I'm willing to bet most of us feel the same. Bhaskar, who says that an ethical, moral or religious critique of capitalism from the left has to be some sort of fiction? To me, the argument that capitalism degrades the moral worth of persons (and the environment) and contradicts many basic ethical concepts as well as many of the teachings of basically all world religions is just as correct as the best objective, theoretical analysis. While people need to understand why capitalism is flawed in their heads, they need to feel it in their heart and their gut if they’re ever going to become committed to actually working for socialism. When I’m involved in any sort of organizing project or demonstration, I’m not thinking primarily of crisis theory or commodity fetishism or something. I’m thinking of the real-world effects that the current regime dishes out to real human beings. I’m willing to bet most of us feel the same.

]]> By: Chris Maisano http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil/comment-page-1#comment-42872 Chris Maisano Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:28:32 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil#comment-42872 I'm not sure if that kind of antagonism in the old SPD was really all that useful. The kind of orthodox Marxism represented by guys like Kautsky and Hilferding prevented the party from reacting effectively to developments within capitalism that orthodox theory couldn't adequately deal with, and it certainly prevented the party from dealing with the Great Depression in any sort of effective fashion, which created a vacuum that the Communists and Nazis were more than happy to fill. I understand the need to maintain a vision of a new society in order to inspire the troops, but why should it have little grounding in political reality, like Kautsky's ideological orthodoxy? To me, that just contributes to incoherence and confusion. I’m not sure if that kind of antagonism in the old SPD was really all that useful. The kind of orthodox Marxism represented by guys like Kautsky and Hilferding prevented the party from reacting effectively to developments within capitalism that orthodox theory couldn’t adequately deal with, and it certainly prevented the party from dealing with the Great Depression in any sort of effective fashion, which created a vacuum that the Communists and Nazis were more than happy to fill. I understand the need to maintain a vision of a new society in order to inspire the troops, but why should it have little grounding in political reality, like Kautsky’s ideological orthodoxy? To me, that just contributes to incoherence and confusion.

]]> By: Adrian Bleifuss Prados http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil/comment-page-1#comment-42871 Adrian Bleifuss Prados Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:15:50 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil#comment-42871 I appreciate Kautsky. What I most like about him is that he tried to keep some radical fire alive in a German socialist movement that was, in practice, obviously following a Bernsteinian program. The contradictions between the theory and practice of turn-of-the-century German Social Democracy infuriated left-wing radicals of the time. But I think that kind of "centrist" tension is exactly what is needed. Otherwise people devolve leftward into a Church of Pie in the Sky or rightward into pink conservatism. Rather than resolve the differences between Kautsky and Bernstein, or choose one over the other, I would rather opportunistically avoid taking "a line" on the controversy and let their beneficial antagonism play on. I appreciate Kautsky. What I most like about him is that he tried to keep some radical fire alive in a German socialist movement that was, in practice, obviously following a Bernsteinian program.

The contradictions between the theory and practice of turn-of-the-century German Social Democracy infuriated left-wing radicals of the time. But I think that kind of “centrist” tension is exactly what is needed. Otherwise people devolve leftward into a Church of Pie in the Sky or rightward into pink conservatism. Rather than resolve the differences between Kautsky and Bernstein, or choose one over the other, I would rather opportunistically avoid taking “a line” on the controversy and let their beneficial antagonism play on.

]]> By: Bhaskar Sunkara http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil/comment-page-1#comment-42821 Bhaskar Sunkara Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:45:37 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil#comment-42821 That article Chris linked to was excellent, well worth a read. One other somewhat unrelated point-- I think we tend to overemphasize how big the transition from social democracy to democratic socialism would be. A transition program wouldn't be as utopian as even self-proclaimed socialists make it seem. Of course democracy is the road to socialism, but there are some limits to parliamentary democracy. Obviously for the present in the United States this isn't very relevant, but I would imagine that worker occupied factories, dual power through community councils, etc etc would all play a role. The cleanest way to socialism would obviously be through social democratic policy combined with non-reformist reforms that pursue worker management of the means of production. Kautsky I think is a good middle ground between the maximalism of Luxemburg and the gradualism of Bernstein. Of course in 2009 it all seems like a ridiculous fantasy, but we've seen how fast the world can move. 40 years ago Marxist thought was everywhere, it was an era of revolutions. 20 years ago we had the neoliberal consensus achieve unprecedented hegemony in the world. Whose to say that social democracy and democratic socialism won't be forces in 20 years? That article Chris linked to was excellent, well worth a read.

One other somewhat unrelated point– I think we tend to overemphasize how big the transition from social democracy to democratic socialism would be. A transition program wouldn’t be as utopian as even self-proclaimed socialists make it seem.

Of course democracy is the road to socialism, but there are some limits to parliamentary democracy. Obviously for the present in the United States this isn’t very relevant, but I would imagine that worker occupied factories, dual power through community councils, etc etc would all play a role. The cleanest way to socialism would obviously be through social democratic policy combined with non-reformist reforms that pursue worker management of the means of production. Kautsky I think is a good middle ground between the maximalism of Luxemburg and the gradualism of Bernstein.

Of course in 2009 it all seems like a ridiculous fantasy, but we’ve seen how fast the world can move. 40 years ago Marxist thought was everywhere, it was an era of revolutions. 20 years ago we had the neoliberal consensus achieve unprecedented hegemony in the world. Whose to say that social democracy and democratic socialism won’t be forces in 20 years?

]]> By: Bhaskar Sunkara http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil/comment-page-1#comment-42782 Bhaskar Sunkara Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:47:44 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/beyond-good-and-evil#comment-42782 I'm not suggesting that a distance from moral appeals and ethical sensibilities is the best way to attract a mass movement, but I just find personally that if you're talking one on one to someone who can be persuaded, the truth is easier to sell than a fiction. The truth being that their boss isn't a malevolent character, same with the majority of capitalists; they are merely acting in their class interests and responding to the demands of a market economy. It may seem like a very austere outlook, but I think its essentially a humanizing one. As Marshall Berman writes, “These possessors [of the wealth of the society] don’t want to know how deeply they are possessed [by capital]. …If a good life is a life of action, why should the range of human activities be limited to those that are profitable?” Tactics are tactics--I would love to tap into rage and hopefully there will be opportunities to shape popular anger into a political movement for social change; in the meantime acknowledging the truth has some intrinsic merit. I’m not suggesting that a distance from moral appeals and ethical sensibilities is the best way to attract a mass movement, but I just find personally that if you’re talking one on one to someone who can be persuaded, the truth is easier to sell than a fiction. The truth being that their boss isn’t a malevolent character, same with the majority of capitalists; they are merely acting in their class interests and responding to the demands of a market economy.

It may seem like a very austere outlook, but I think its essentially a humanizing one.

As Marshall Berman writes, “These possessors [of the wealth of the society] don’t want to know how deeply they are possessed [by capital]. …If a good life is a life of action, why should the range of human activities be limited to those that are profitable?”

Tactics are tactics–I would love to tap into rage and hopefully there will be opportunities to shape popular anger into a political movement for social change; in the meantime acknowledging the truth has some intrinsic merit.

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