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	<title>Comments on: Do They Owe Us a Living?</title>
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	<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/do-they-owe-us-a-living</link>
	<description>// Culture. Consciousness. Critical Thought. //</description>
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		<title>By: The Saint</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/do-they-owe-us-a-living/comment-page-1#comment-75292</link>
		<dc:creator>The Saint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2488#comment-75292</guid>
		<description>One of the goals of democratic socialism is to end the exploitation of labor, right? To get rid of a system where some people profit from the labor of others? What is someone doing who is not working, not contributing, not even paying their own way, but exploiting the labor of people who are working? This seems like it would make the myth of the welfare queen a reality. 

Another solution instead having some people working and and others not is to have everyone working, but spending less hours working per capita. Lets say that the standard work week became 30 hours a week, giving people much more time to spend with their families, pursue hobbies, generally express their individuality, etc. This would be a great improvement on the current system, where many hourly workers work 60 hours a week to make ends meet, or salaried workers being pressured by capricious bosses to work more than 40hrs a week (I recently talked to my mother about work, and she said her boss doing consider a full-time employee to be putting forth sufficient effort unless they&#039;re working 55 hrs a week).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the goals of democratic socialism is to end the exploitation of labor, right? To get rid of a system where some people profit from the labor of others? What is someone doing who is not working, not contributing, not even paying their own way, but exploiting the labor of people who are working? This seems like it would make the myth of the welfare queen a reality. </p>
<p>Another solution instead having some people working and and others not is to have everyone working, but spending less hours working per capita. Lets say that the standard work week became 30 hours a week, giving people much more time to spend with their families, pursue hobbies, generally express their individuality, etc. This would be a great improvement on the current system, where many hourly workers work 60 hours a week to make ends meet, or salaried workers being pressured by capricious bosses to work more than 40hrs a week (I recently talked to my mother about work, and she said her boss doing consider a full-time employee to be putting forth sufficient effort unless they&#8217;re working 55 hrs a week).</p>
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		<title>By: TV Review: &#8220;Undercover Boss&#8221; and the misfortune of labor &#124; The Activist</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/do-they-owe-us-a-living/comment-page-1#comment-74612</link>
		<dc:creator>TV Review: &#8220;Undercover Boss&#8221; and the misfortune of labor &#124; The Activist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 04:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2488#comment-74612</guid>
		<description>[...] rate a post. But what really struck me about the episode was something that relates to my recent post on guaranteed income. This show inadvertently makes the point that there is nothing noble or [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] rate a post. But what really struck me about the episode was something that relates to my recent post on guaranteed income. This show inadvertently makes the point that there is nothing noble or [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Kerr</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/do-they-owe-us-a-living/comment-page-1#comment-74553</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2488#comment-74553</guid>
		<description>$4100?  Good to know!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>$4100?  Good to know!</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Frase</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/do-they-owe-us-a-living/comment-page-1#comment-74552</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Frase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2488#comment-74552</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;ve made a mistake in your calculation here. $3 per capita is less than $1 billion, which is nothing by federal budget standards. By my rough calculation, federal outlays for Social Security and Income Security programs (including food stamps, disability, housing assistance, etc.) are around $4100 per capita for fiscal 2009. (See http://www.nber.org/palmdata/indicators/source.html). Still well below what&#039;s needed, of course, but let&#039;s at least get the order of magnitude right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;ve made a mistake in your calculation here. $3 per capita is less than $1 billion, which is nothing by federal budget standards. By my rough calculation, federal outlays for Social Security and Income Security programs (including food stamps, disability, housing assistance, etc.) are around $4100 per capita for fiscal 2009. (See <a href="http://www.nber.org/palmdata/indicators/source.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nber.org/palmdata/indicators/source.html</a>). Still well below what&#8217;s needed, of course, but let&#8217;s at least get the order of magnitude right.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Kerr</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/do-they-owe-us-a-living/comment-page-1#comment-74550</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2488#comment-74550</guid>
		<description>As best I can tell -- and I&#039;ll admit I&#039;m not confident I&#039;ve done the research well -- but as best I can tell, the federal government spent about $3.06 per capita on welfare, social security and unemployment in 2008.  I&#039;d love to add state and county spending in there, but that&#039;s above my pay grade.  I can&#039;t imagine it&#039;s much above $20 per capita, and may be lower.  

$20 isn&#039;t much to build a BIG on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As best I can tell &#8212; and I&#8217;ll admit I&#8217;m not confident I&#8217;ve done the research well &#8212; but as best I can tell, the federal government spent about $3.06 per capita on welfare, social security and unemployment in 2008.  I&#8217;d love to add state and county spending in there, but that&#8217;s above my pay grade.  I can&#8217;t imagine it&#8217;s much above $20 per capita, and may be lower.  </p>
<p>$20 isn&#8217;t much to build a BIG on.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Frase</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/do-they-owe-us-a-living/comment-page-1#comment-74548</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Frase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2488#comment-74548</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t pretend that the financing issues are simple. But there is an extensive literature debating them, and many smart people have concluded that it&#039;s feasible. Briefly, what I would say is:

1. The cost seems bigger than it is, because for a lot of the full-time employed it would be largely a wash: you pay more in taxes, and then get the basic income payment back. Which isn&#039;t to deny that some people would see a net reduction in income--but of course a big problem with the current form of capitalism is that it concentrates so much wealth and income among a small number of people. You can either deal with that by trying to restructure the labor market to create lots of full-time high-wage jobs, or you can do less labor market regulation but then directly redistribute income at the back end. I think the latter is more workable and more desirable.

2. A baseline guaranteed income can partly be diverted out of other existing benefits--you obviously don&#039;t need welfare, social security or unemployment insurance as specialized programs insofar as everyone has access to a minimum income. This is one of the many reasons why basic income is likely to catch on in Europe before it does here--since they already have more generous benefit systems, the overall increase in taxes needed to finance the basic income guarantee would be a lot less.

3. For the sake of argument, I argued that I&#039;m not against reducing labor supply, but it should be emphasized that the effects of income guarantees on labor supply aren&#039;t all going to be negative. By removing the poverty trap that&#039;s inherent in means-tested social welfare benefits, you would make it easier for people to maintain various kinds of intermittent and part-time work, supplemented by the basic income.

4. I recognize, of course, that you can&#039;t restructure the entire economy and give everyone a living wage all in one shot. The most likely starting point is a small minimum income that&#039;s well below what you would need to survive on by itself. Ultimately, the trajectory of the program would then have to work in two directions: bringing the size of the grant up, and bringing the cost of living down so that the necessary level of a basic income is lower. My guess (and my hope) is that the cost of living would to some extent come down naturally as people chose to substitute their own unpaid labor for things rather than pay for services. But there&#039;s a big public policy component, too: affordable housing and transit would be key priorities since they make up about half of consumer expenditures. 

The general point, which goes beyond what you think of basic income as a specific proposal, is that there are basically two kinds of social-democratic equilibrium you can shoot for. The first is one where everyone works a lot, makes a lot of money, and has to spend a lot of money--either to pay for things they don&#039;t have time to do themselves, or to pay inflated asset prices for things like housing that get bid up simply because everyone has more income. That equilibrium is the 20th century Keynesian/Social Democratic, &quot;full employment&quot; ideal. The other equilibrium is the one with lower income and lower costs, and one objective of my post was to say that this latter situation is one we should actively prefer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t pretend that the financing issues are simple. But there is an extensive literature debating them, and many smart people have concluded that it&#8217;s feasible. Briefly, what I would say is:</p>
<p>1. The cost seems bigger than it is, because for a lot of the full-time employed it would be largely a wash: you pay more in taxes, and then get the basic income payment back. Which isn&#8217;t to deny that some people would see a net reduction in income&#8211;but of course a big problem with the current form of capitalism is that it concentrates so much wealth and income among a small number of people. You can either deal with that by trying to restructure the labor market to create lots of full-time high-wage jobs, or you can do less labor market regulation but then directly redistribute income at the back end. I think the latter is more workable and more desirable.</p>
<p>2. A baseline guaranteed income can partly be diverted out of other existing benefits&#8211;you obviously don&#8217;t need welfare, social security or unemployment insurance as specialized programs insofar as everyone has access to a minimum income. This is one of the many reasons why basic income is likely to catch on in Europe before it does here&#8211;since they already have more generous benefit systems, the overall increase in taxes needed to finance the basic income guarantee would be a lot less.</p>
<p>3. For the sake of argument, I argued that I&#8217;m not against reducing labor supply, but it should be emphasized that the effects of income guarantees on labor supply aren&#8217;t all going to be negative. By removing the poverty trap that&#8217;s inherent in means-tested social welfare benefits, you would make it easier for people to maintain various kinds of intermittent and part-time work, supplemented by the basic income.</p>
<p>4. I recognize, of course, that you can&#8217;t restructure the entire economy and give everyone a living wage all in one shot. The most likely starting point is a small minimum income that&#8217;s well below what you would need to survive on by itself. Ultimately, the trajectory of the program would then have to work in two directions: bringing the size of the grant up, and bringing the cost of living down so that the necessary level of a basic income is lower. My guess (and my hope) is that the cost of living would to some extent come down naturally as people chose to substitute their own unpaid labor for things rather than pay for services. But there&#8217;s a big public policy component, too: affordable housing and transit would be key priorities since they make up about half of consumer expenditures. </p>
<p>The general point, which goes beyond what you think of basic income as a specific proposal, is that there are basically two kinds of social-democratic equilibrium you can shoot for. The first is one where everyone works a lot, makes a lot of money, and has to spend a lot of money&#8211;either to pay for things they don&#8217;t have time to do themselves, or to pay inflated asset prices for things like housing that get bid up simply because everyone has more income. That equilibrium is the 20th century Keynesian/Social Democratic, &#8220;full employment&#8221; ideal. The other equilibrium is the one with lower income and lower costs, and one objective of my post was to say that this latter situation is one we should actively prefer.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Kerr</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/do-they-owe-us-a-living/comment-page-1#comment-74547</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2488#comment-74547</guid>
		<description>Our 2008 GDP was slightly less than $46,695 per capita.  You want to eliminate a bunch of that, but still guarantee an income that&#039;s big enough to live on?  Where will the money come from?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our 2008 GDP was slightly less than $46,695 per capita.  You want to eliminate a bunch of that, but still guarantee an income that&#8217;s big enough to live on?  Where will the money come from?</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Kerr</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/do-they-owe-us-a-living/comment-page-1#comment-74544</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:00:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2488#comment-74544</guid>
		<description>Boston Review had a good series, too. 

http://www.bostonreview.net/BR25.5/contents.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boston Review had a good series, too. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.bostonreview.net/BR25.5/contents.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.bostonreview.net/BR25.5/contents.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Peter Frase</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/do-they-owe-us-a-living/comment-page-1#comment-74530</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Frase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 05:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2488#comment-74530</guid>
		<description>It seems you didn&#039;t read my original post, or my argument wasn&#039;t clear. My whole point is that a lot of jobs are useless or counterproductive--reducing labor supply is a feature, not a bug, of guaranteed income. That&#039;s leaving aside the question of whether the limited NIT experiments are really dispositive about what would happen if you implemented something like that on a mass scale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems you didn&#8217;t read my original post, or my argument wasn&#8217;t clear. My whole point is that a lot of jobs are useless or counterproductive&#8211;reducing labor supply is a feature, not a bug, of guaranteed income. That&#8217;s leaving aside the question of whether the limited NIT experiments are really dispositive about what would happen if you implemented something like that on a mass scale.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Holt Williams</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/do-they-owe-us-a-living/comment-page-1#comment-74529</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Holt Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 04:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2488#comment-74529</guid>
		<description>Not to mention, the negative income tax was tried in a few locales in the US in the 70s and was scrapped pretty quickly, largely because it decreased labor supply. I believe a better way to go is a living wage for those who can and do work, to reward work and give rise to growing income among low-earners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to mention, the negative income tax was tried in a few locales in the US in the 70s and was scrapped pretty quickly, largely because it decreased labor supply. I believe a better way to go is a living wage for those who can and do work, to reward work and give rise to growing income among low-earners.</p>
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