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	<title>Comments on: In Defense of Participatory Planning</title>
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	<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/in-defense-of-participatory-planning</link>
	<description>// Culture. Consciousness. Critical Thought. //</description>
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		<title>By: Marxist_activist</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/in-defense-of-participatory-planning/comment-page-1#comment-74917</link>
		<dc:creator>Marxist_activist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 21:19:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2468#comment-74917</guid>
		<description>Of course Devine&#039;s model is much better one than any &quot;market socialist&quot; para-capitalist models, such as Schweickart&#039;s. But I&#039;ve found one problem with it. In their second reply to Hodgson&#039;s critique Devine and Adaman wrote:

&quot;In our model there are competing enterprises engaging in market exchange, with customers able to exercise choice, whether they are consumers or other enterprises or public bodies&quot;

And:

It should also be noted that the existence in our model of competition between enterprises engaging in market exchange involves ‘multiple centres of decision-making’ and in no way requires that ‘all plans are submitted to a
single system of authority’ (Hodgson 2005: 143).&quot;
[Devine, Adaman, The promise of participatory planning: a rejoinder to Hodgson]

Is Devine (and also Adaman) a supporter of market competition in socialist, participatory economics? If so, what are these &quot;marker forces&quot;, which ougth to be abolish? I always thought that &quot;market forces&quot; are these enterprises, which compete with each other on the market to sell their products. If we have a competition we also have a tendency to maximalize the profits, which is antagonistic to socialist principles of satisfy social needs. 
Competition between factories in socialist model makes &quot;the property changes&quot; a cosmetic one: the capitalist property will be changed into workers&#039; property similar to shareholders, but more &quot;collective&quot;. Similar model of economic competition was in Titoist Yugoslavia, what was one of the most important reasons why this economic model collapsed (another reasons were political antydemocratic Stalinist-tyle regime and party-state bureaucracy).  
Is there any serious differences with &quot;market socialism&quot; on the basis of competition?
When I read Callinicos on Devine (&quot;Anti-Capitalist Manifesto&quot;) and other Marxist writers I saw they ingore this problem. Contrary, I think it is one of the most important question in the socialist movement.

Best all, 
Paweł. 

[sorry for my English writing, but I&#039;m not English speaking and rarely write something in this language]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course Devine&#8217;s model is much better one than any &#8220;market socialist&#8221; para-capitalist models, such as Schweickart&#8217;s. But I&#8217;ve found one problem with it. In their second reply to Hodgson&#8217;s critique Devine and Adaman wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;In our model there are competing enterprises engaging in market exchange, with customers able to exercise choice, whether they are consumers or other enterprises or public bodies&#8221;</p>
<p>And:</p>
<p>It should also be noted that the existence in our model of competition between enterprises engaging in market exchange involves ‘multiple centres of decision-making’ and in no way requires that ‘all plans are submitted to a<br />
single system of authority’ (Hodgson 2005: 143).&#8221;<br />
[Devine, Adaman, The promise of participatory planning: a rejoinder to Hodgson]</p>
<p>Is Devine (and also Adaman) a supporter of market competition in socialist, participatory economics? If so, what are these &#8220;marker forces&#8221;, which ougth to be abolish? I always thought that &#8220;market forces&#8221; are these enterprises, which compete with each other on the market to sell their products. If we have a competition we also have a tendency to maximalize the profits, which is antagonistic to socialist principles of satisfy social needs.<br />
Competition between factories in socialist model makes &#8220;the property changes&#8221; a cosmetic one: the capitalist property will be changed into workers&#8217; property similar to shareholders, but more &#8220;collective&#8221;. Similar model of economic competition was in Titoist Yugoslavia, what was one of the most important reasons why this economic model collapsed (another reasons were political antydemocratic Stalinist-tyle regime and party-state bureaucracy).<br />
Is there any serious differences with &#8220;market socialism&#8221; on the basis of competition?<br />
When I read Callinicos on Devine (&#8220;Anti-Capitalist Manifesto&#8221;) and other Marxist writers I saw they ingore this problem. Contrary, I think it is one of the most important question in the socialist movement.</p>
<p>Best all,<br />
Paweł. </p>
<p>[sorry for my English writing, but I'm not English speaking and rarely write something in this language]</p>
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		<title>By: Do They Owe Us a Living? &#124; The Activist</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/in-defense-of-participatory-planning/comment-page-1#comment-74519</link>
		<dc:creator>Do They Owe Us a Living? &#124; The Activist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 22:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2468#comment-74519</guid>
		<description>[...] In Defense of Participatory Planning [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In Defense of Participatory Planning [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Stark</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/in-defense-of-participatory-planning/comment-page-1#comment-74512</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Stark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 00:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2468#comment-74512</guid>
		<description>Thank you for publishing this exchange. It was illuminating to read a summary of Devine&#039;s vision of participatory planning, as well as Schweickart&#039;s market socialist vision, and to see the distinction made between market exchange and market forces, which I had not grasped before. 

Regarding R. Burke&#039;s comment above about the Burrows Mondragon coffeehouse essay in Real Utopia, I also was disturbed by the way that problems that balanced job complexes seemed to cause. I also recognized some of the dynamics Burrows mentioned from my time living and working in a (non-parecon) co-operative housing organization-- some of the problems simply seem to fall under the rubric of &quot;when you try to live and work democratically, people&#039;s personality problems are a lot more difficult to avoid.&quot; 

 FWIW, I know that there has been concern on the Left that, especially in early essays and books, Albert and Hahnel presented parecon outside of any political or historical context. Robin Hahnel&#039;s most recent book on parecon, published after his break with Michael Albert, (&quot;Economic Justice and Democracy: From Competition to Cooperation&quot; (2005)) addresses some of these concerns, in my opinion.  Only 2 out of the 14 chapters are specifically about parecon. One of these two parecon chapters specifically addresses &quot;Legitimate Concerns&quot; raised by Thomas Weisskopf, George Scialabba, and others. The rest of the book critiques different Left and leftish tendencies (central planning, social democracy, libertarian socialism, localism...), and provides tactical suggestions for moving from a market-triumphalist society (as of 2005, and still to a large extent, today) to an &quot;economy based on equitable cooperation.&quot; (p. 255, Hahnel 2005). I&#039;m not saying that this book should fully convince anyone about parecon (nor has it fully convinced me). But this book can lead to further debates among Leftists about what elements from different post-capitalist visions are feasible and desirable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for publishing this exchange. It was illuminating to read a summary of Devine&#8217;s vision of participatory planning, as well as Schweickart&#8217;s market socialist vision, and to see the distinction made between market exchange and market forces, which I had not grasped before. </p>
<p>Regarding R. Burke&#8217;s comment above about the Burrows Mondragon coffeehouse essay in Real Utopia, I also was disturbed by the way that problems that balanced job complexes seemed to cause. I also recognized some of the dynamics Burrows mentioned from my time living and working in a (non-parecon) co-operative housing organization&#8211; some of the problems simply seem to fall under the rubric of &#8220;when you try to live and work democratically, people&#8217;s personality problems are a lot more difficult to avoid.&#8221; </p>
<p> FWIW, I know that there has been concern on the Left that, especially in early essays and books, Albert and Hahnel presented parecon outside of any political or historical context. Robin Hahnel&#8217;s most recent book on parecon, published after his break with Michael Albert, (&#8220;Economic Justice and Democracy: From Competition to Cooperation&#8221; (2005)) addresses some of these concerns, in my opinion.  Only 2 out of the 14 chapters are specifically about parecon. One of these two parecon chapters specifically addresses &#8220;Legitimate Concerns&#8221; raised by Thomas Weisskopf, George Scialabba, and others. The rest of the book critiques different Left and leftish tendencies (central planning, social democracy, libertarian socialism, localism&#8230;), and provides tactical suggestions for moving from a market-triumphalist society (as of 2005, and still to a large extent, today) to an &#8220;economy based on equitable cooperation.&#8221; (p. 255, Hahnel 2005). I&#8217;m not saying that this book should fully convince anyone about parecon (nor has it fully convinced me). But this book can lead to further debates among Leftists about what elements from different post-capitalist visions are feasible and desirable.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Schulman</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/in-defense-of-participatory-planning/comment-page-1#comment-74510</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Schulman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 20:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2468#comment-74510</guid>
		<description>I tried to explain how participatory planning would work in the first post in this series (&quot;The Economics of Socialism.&quot;) Maybe I wasn&#039;t clear enough. Devine explains it here: http://rebellionsucks.googlepages.com/pptnc.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tried to explain how participatory planning would work in the first post in this series (&#8220;The Economics of Socialism.&#8221;) Maybe I wasn&#8217;t clear enough. Devine explains it here: <a href="http://rebellionsucks.googlepages.com/pptnc.htm" rel="nofollow">http://rebellionsucks.googlepages.com/pptnc.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Holt Williams</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/in-defense-of-participatory-planning/comment-page-1#comment-74509</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Holt Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 19:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2468#comment-74509</guid>
		<description>Perhaps I&#039;m not quite grasping something here, but how exactly would this sort of planning be carried out? What sort of organizations would engage in such a thing, and how do this organizations avoid becoming a sort of entrenched organization which separates from portions of society?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps I&#8217;m not quite grasping something here, but how exactly would this sort of planning be carried out? What sort of organizations would engage in such a thing, and how do this organizations avoid becoming a sort of entrenched organization which separates from portions of society?</p>
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		<title>By: Bhaskar Sunkara</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/in-defense-of-participatory-planning/comment-page-1#comment-74505</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhaskar Sunkara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 01:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2468#comment-74505</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll interject at length later, but I think this kind of discussion and debate... though traditionally considered utopian by &quot;orthodox&quot; Marxists and even other mainstream leftists, is absolutely vital intellectually for radicals and also &lt;em&gt;politically necessary&lt;/em&gt;.  Even an &quot;alternative&quot; as shoddy as central-planning captivated the imagination of millions and forced the ruling class to concede some real reforms.

I&#039;ll quote our dear friend Milton Friedman from the preface to the 1980 reprint of &quot;Freedom and Capitalism&quot; (in a quote that Naomi Klein ripped out of context):

&quot;There is enormous inertia, a tyranny of the status quo in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis actual or perceived produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable.&quot;
**

Ignoring the fact that crisis without an established left opposition movement is a great formula for reaction, these are fine sentiments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll interject at length later, but I think this kind of discussion and debate&#8230; though traditionally considered utopian by &#8220;orthodox&#8221; Marxists and even other mainstream leftists, is absolutely vital intellectually for radicals and also <em>politically necessary</em>.  Even an &#8220;alternative&#8221; as shoddy as central-planning captivated the imagination of millions and forced the ruling class to concede some real reforms.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll quote our dear friend Milton Friedman from the preface to the 1980 reprint of &#8220;Freedom and Capitalism&#8221; (in a quote that Naomi Klein ripped out of context):</p>
<p>&#8220;There is enormous inertia, a tyranny of the status quo in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis actual or perceived produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable.&#8221;<br />
**</p>
<p>Ignoring the fact that crisis without an established left opposition movement is a great formula for reaction, these are fine sentiments.</p>
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		<title>By: R. Burke</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/in-defense-of-participatory-planning/comment-page-1#comment-74504</link>
		<dc:creator>R. Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:57:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2468#comment-74504</guid>
		<description>Actually I think Devine proposes something along the lines of the consumer&#039;s councils of Albert and Hahnel, without using that term, since he clearly indicates consumers will play a part in the participatory planning process. Perhaps these should be seen as a kind of consumer&#039;s cooperatives. On the whole I agree though, his approach is more a real world one. I think that using market exchange, especially for consumer&#039;s goods, is a better approach than trying to plan every item before economic activity begins. Such a &quot;plan&quot; would soon be out of step with actual economic reality. Albert and Hahnel would counter that they allow for updating the plan, which is true, but why would the updated plan not also come over time to be in need of updating? A plan that has to be constantly updated makes a mockery of the idea of planning. The proposals for overcoming the division of labor you mention are superior to the vague &quot;balanced work complexes&quot; of parecon. 

One of the things that came to disillusion me about Albert and Hahnel is the recent &quot;Real Utopia&quot; collection edited by Chris Spannos. In the section about attempts to realize parecon in the actual practice of cooperative enterprises it becomes clear that the &quot;balanced work complexes&quot; and &quot;payment according to sacrifice and effort&quot; they tout as pillars of participatory economics  prove to be elusive if not positively unattainable. In one of those essays, by Paul Burrows about the Mondragon bookstore and coffeehouse in Winnipeg, the author not only admits that they were unable to realize these principles in practice but even goes so far as to claim that the fault lies with him and his fellow workers, not the wonderful principles themselves! 

One of the things that came to convince me about participatory planning was the fact that Pat Devine actually supports the idea of a guaranteed income, which I think is more important than &quot;payment according to sacrifice and effort&quot;. No one&#039;s right to live should be dependent upon being a cog in an economic machine, and long before I read Albert and Hahnel I was (and continue to be) an admirer of the work of Andre Gorz. I find that Pat Devine&#039;s work harmonizes much better with Gorz&#039; proposals than parecon does. 

At any rate thank you for your fine essays, and I&#039;m glad to see that I&#039;m not the only one on the North American left who is taking a serious look at participatory planning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually I think Devine proposes something along the lines of the consumer&#8217;s councils of Albert and Hahnel, without using that term, since he clearly indicates consumers will play a part in the participatory planning process. Perhaps these should be seen as a kind of consumer&#8217;s cooperatives. On the whole I agree though, his approach is more a real world one. I think that using market exchange, especially for consumer&#8217;s goods, is a better approach than trying to plan every item before economic activity begins. Such a &#8220;plan&#8221; would soon be out of step with actual economic reality. Albert and Hahnel would counter that they allow for updating the plan, which is true, but why would the updated plan not also come over time to be in need of updating? A plan that has to be constantly updated makes a mockery of the idea of planning. The proposals for overcoming the division of labor you mention are superior to the vague &#8220;balanced work complexes&#8221; of parecon. </p>
<p>One of the things that came to disillusion me about Albert and Hahnel is the recent &#8220;Real Utopia&#8221; collection edited by Chris Spannos. In the section about attempts to realize parecon in the actual practice of cooperative enterprises it becomes clear that the &#8220;balanced work complexes&#8221; and &#8220;payment according to sacrifice and effort&#8221; they tout as pillars of participatory economics  prove to be elusive if not positively unattainable. In one of those essays, by Paul Burrows about the Mondragon bookstore and coffeehouse in Winnipeg, the author not only admits that they were unable to realize these principles in practice but even goes so far as to claim that the fault lies with him and his fellow workers, not the wonderful principles themselves! </p>
<p>One of the things that came to convince me about participatory planning was the fact that Pat Devine actually supports the idea of a guaranteed income, which I think is more important than &#8220;payment according to sacrifice and effort&#8221;. No one&#8217;s right to live should be dependent upon being a cog in an economic machine, and long before I read Albert and Hahnel I was (and continue to be) an admirer of the work of Andre Gorz. I find that Pat Devine&#8217;s work harmonizes much better with Gorz&#8217; proposals than parecon does. </p>
<p>At any rate thank you for your fine essays, and I&#8217;m glad to see that I&#8217;m not the only one on the North American left who is taking a serious look at participatory planning.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Schulman</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/in-defense-of-participatory-planning/comment-page-1#comment-74503</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Schulman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 21:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2468#comment-74503</guid>
		<description>In the past Devine has written for &lt;em&gt;New Politics&lt;/em&gt;, which is pretty non-academic. He&#039;s also written for &lt;em&gt;New Left Review&lt;/em&gt;, which I suppose is semi-academic. Other than that, yeah, it&#039;s all peer-reviewed stuff. Obviously I prefer Pat&#039;s work to that of Albert and Hahnel. I have real doubts about the feasibility of &quot;ParEcon&quot; and moreover I just don&#039;t like their approach, which involves inventing things that have no real-world precursors (consumer councils, an Iteration Facilitation Board, etc.). And their economic vision seems completely detached from politics, while Devine&#039;s is not. This makes Devine&#039;s vision more credible in my eyes.

A nonacademic Devine essay can be found here: http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/journals/soundings/debates/left_futures3.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the past Devine has written for <em>New Politics</em>, which is pretty non-academic. He&#8217;s also written for <em>New Left Review</em>, which I suppose is semi-academic. Other than that, yeah, it&#8217;s all peer-reviewed stuff. Obviously I prefer Pat&#8217;s work to that of Albert and Hahnel. I have real doubts about the feasibility of &#8220;ParEcon&#8221; and moreover I just don&#8217;t like their approach, which involves inventing things that have no real-world precursors (consumer councils, an Iteration Facilitation Board, etc.). And their economic vision seems completely detached from politics, while Devine&#8217;s is not. This makes Devine&#8217;s vision more credible in my eyes.</p>
<p>A nonacademic Devine essay can be found here: <a href="http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/journals/soundings/debates/left_futures3.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/journals/soundings/debates/left_futures3.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: R. Burke</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/in-defense-of-participatory-planning/comment-page-1#comment-74502</link>
		<dc:creator>R. Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 21:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2468#comment-74502</guid>
		<description>A major problem for those of us who support the participatory planning model is that Pat Devine&#039;s works are mostly in academic publications not easily accessible to a lay audience. His masterpiece &quot;Democracy and Economic Planning: the Political Economy of a Self-Governing Society&quot; is currently out of print. A reading of it will show that his model is a detailed and well thought out one, far from the sloppy caricature that Mr. Schweickart makes of it. I became aware of Devine from references in the work of Albert and Hahnel, whose &quot;parecon&quot; model I supported for many years before seeking out works on participatory planning. Part of what won me over was that Devine, unlike so many who offer models of alternative economics, has a weighty empirical component to his work rather than simply offering abstract theorizing-and endless hairsplitting thereon. There needs to be a greater awareness of his body of thought, and someone needs to reprint &quot;Democracy and Economic Planning&quot; for a wider audience, perhaps with a new introduction by Mr. Devine. A wider awareness of his ideas, perhaps in conjunction with the &quot;world systems analysis&quot; of Immanuel Wallerstein, would do wonders for the intellectual reinvigoration the socialist movement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A major problem for those of us who support the participatory planning model is that Pat Devine&#8217;s works are mostly in academic publications not easily accessible to a lay audience. His masterpiece &#8220;Democracy and Economic Planning: the Political Economy of a Self-Governing Society&#8221; is currently out of print. A reading of it will show that his model is a detailed and well thought out one, far from the sloppy caricature that Mr. Schweickart makes of it. I became aware of Devine from references in the work of Albert and Hahnel, whose &#8220;parecon&#8221; model I supported for many years before seeking out works on participatory planning. Part of what won me over was that Devine, unlike so many who offer models of alternative economics, has a weighty empirical component to his work rather than simply offering abstract theorizing-and endless hairsplitting thereon. There needs to be a greater awareness of his body of thought, and someone needs to reprint &#8220;Democracy and Economic Planning&#8221; for a wider audience, perhaps with a new introduction by Mr. Devine. A wider awareness of his ideas, perhaps in conjunction with the &#8220;world systems analysis&#8221; of Immanuel Wallerstein, would do wonders for the intellectual reinvigoration the socialist movement.</p>
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