Comments on: The Economics of Socialism http://theactivist.org/blog/the-economics-of-socialism // Culture. Consciousness. Critical Thought. // Tue, 07 Feb 2012 06:43:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jason Schulman http://theactivist.org/blog/the-economics-of-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-74591 Jason Schulman Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:26:05 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2390#comment-74591 I understand Schweickart's model pretty well, I know who owns what. I am less sure than he is that the self-regulating market, even if supposedly only for goods and services, can be used as a tool for the furtherance of socialist goals. I understand Schweickart’s model pretty well, I know who owns what. I am less sure than he is that the self-regulating market, even if supposedly only for goods and services, can be used as a tool for the furtherance of socialist goals.

]]> By: Eric Jennings http://theactivist.org/blog/the-economics-of-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-74590 Eric Jennings Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:06:29 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2390#comment-74590 This article fails to mention the fact that Schweickart's model also includes a public/worker ownership of productive assets (community and regional ownership of certain productive assets, national ownership of major industries). Schulman has written this article as if investment is the only asset which is publicly-owned in Economic Democracy. In Schweickart's model, the market is merely a tool for the furtherance of societal goals, not a value in and of itself in the manner of capitalism. This article fails to mention the fact that Schweickart’s model also includes a public/worker ownership of productive assets (community and regional ownership of certain productive assets, national ownership of major industries). Schulman has written this article as if investment is the only asset which is publicly-owned in Economic Democracy.

In Schweickart’s model, the market is merely a tool for the furtherance of societal goals, not a value in and of itself in the manner of capitalism.

]]> By: Adam http://theactivist.org/blog/the-economics-of-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-74579 Adam Mon, 22 Feb 2010 05:01:37 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2390#comment-74579 I can attest to this, since I just returned to the states from a six month stay in St. Petersburg. It must be noted that while capitalism à la America was heavily propagandized in the Soviet Union, it was the same vice versa. By no means do I advocate an autocratic economy, but the benefits and drawbacks under the Soviet system weren't exactly as they're portrayed here. The woman I lived with, Lyudmila, would reminisce of the time when there was full employment, no homelessness, and no drugs, while shuddering at the thought of returning to such political persecution. The rapid market-liberalization imposed on the Russian Federation through the policies of the Bretton Wood's institutions was devastating, and though things are slowly improving, the effects still linger. I suggest to Lester to visit, and see how many homeless old women, бездомные бабушки, sifting through trash it takes to recognize the 'potential' consequences. I can attest to this, since I just returned to the states from a six month stay in St. Petersburg. It must be noted that while capitalism à la America was heavily propagandized in the Soviet Union, it was the same vice versa. By no means do I advocate an autocratic economy, but the benefits and drawbacks under the Soviet system weren’t exactly as they’re portrayed here. The woman I lived with, Lyudmila, would reminisce of the time when there was full employment, no homelessness, and no drugs, while shuddering at the thought of returning to such political persecution. The rapid market-liberalization imposed on the Russian Federation through the policies of the Bretton Wood’s institutions was devastating, and though things are slowly improving, the effects still linger.

I suggest to Lester to visit, and see how many homeless old women, бездомные бабушки, sifting through trash it takes to recognize the ‘potential’ consequences.

]]> By: R. Burke http://theactivist.org/blog/the-economics-of-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-74499 R. Burke Fri, 29 Jan 2010 01:04:58 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2390#comment-74499 I recently read Devine's "Democracy and Economic Planning: the Political Economy of a Self-Governing Society" through an on-line library (which I had to subscribe to). Jason's article is a good basic summary of Devine's proposals. A complete reading of it will show that many of the objections raised by market socialists have either been adequately discussed by Devine himself, or are so trivial as to constitute hair-splitting. Above all is the fact that Devine does not simply rely on abstract reasoning, but backs up his claims with empirical data. One of the most interesting sections of his book deals with the history of economic planning, where Pat Devine demonstrates that market socialism has been tried and found wanting, but that the negotiated cooperation process he advocates has been tried in limited versions and found promising. It is time for market socialist advocates to get out of the way. They have had their time and the left has suffered for it! As for free markets--give me a break. They don't exist, never have and never will. I recently read Devine’s “Democracy and Economic Planning: the Political Economy of a Self-Governing Society” through an on-line library (which I had to subscribe to). Jason’s article is a good basic summary of Devine’s proposals. A complete reading of it will show that many of the objections raised by market socialists have either been adequately discussed by Devine himself, or are so trivial as to constitute hair-splitting. Above all is the fact that Devine does not simply rely on abstract reasoning, but backs up his claims with empirical data. One of the most interesting sections of his book deals with the history of economic planning, where Pat Devine demonstrates that market socialism has been tried and found wanting, but that the negotiated cooperation process he advocates has been tried in limited versions and found promising. It is time for market socialist advocates to get out of the way. They have had their time and the left has suffered for it!

As for free markets–give me a break. They don’t exist, never have and never will.

]]> By: On Economic Democracy (A Reply to Jason Schulman) | The Activist http://theactivist.org/blog/the-economics-of-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-74469 On Economic Democracy (A Reply to Jason Schulman) | The Activist Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:22:15 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2390#comment-74469 [...] Jason Schulman’s condemnation of “market socialism,” a variant of which (the “most attractive, he kindly says) I espouse, he and I are not too far [...] [...] Jason Schulman’s condemnation of “market socialism,” a variant of which (the “most attractive, he kindly says) I espouse, he and I are not too far [...]

]]> By: Andrew Holt Williams http://theactivist.org/blog/the-economics-of-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-74456 Andrew Holt Williams Mon, 25 Jan 2010 05:39:53 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2390#comment-74456 Hello folks, long time no see. I'm still parsing the article here, but I'd like to chime in and say that, while GDP might be up quite high (new export markets help), GDP is a poor measurement of income disparity. GDP and disparity are mutually exclusive by most measurements. Not that most anti-democracy, pro-market anarchy proponents would care, but still. Hello folks, long time no see. I’m still parsing the article here, but I’d like to chime in and say that, while GDP might be up quite high (new export markets help), GDP is a poor measurement of income disparity. GDP and disparity are mutually exclusive by most measurements. Not that most anti-democracy, pro-market anarchy proponents would care, but still.

]]> By: lester http://theactivist.org/blog/the-economics-of-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-74443 lester Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:34:36 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2390#comment-74443 does he have anything to say about that massive spike in GDP post communism? does he have anything to say about that massive spike in GDP post communism?

]]> By: Jason Schulman http://theactivist.org/blog/the-economics-of-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-74439 Jason Schulman Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:37:47 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2390#comment-74439 Since we seem to be discussing Russia, I recommend this article by Hillel Ticktin: http://www.solidarity-us.org/node/461/print Since we seem to be discussing Russia, I recommend this article by Hillel Ticktin:

http://www.solidarity-us.org/node/461/print

]]> By: lester http://theactivist.org/blog/the-economics-of-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-74436 lester Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:40:12 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2390#comment-74436 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Russian_economy_since_fall_of_Soviet_Union.PNG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Russian_economy_since_fall_of_Soviet_Union.PNG

]]> By: Bhaskar http://theactivist.org/blog/the-economics-of-socialism/comment-page-1#comment-74434 Bhaskar Wed, 20 Jan 2010 04:55:53 +0000 http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=2390#comment-74434 "Liberalization" was handled especially poorly in Russia, but there can be little denying that the abandonment of large chunks of the command economy has done good for productive forces, if not all segments of the population, in China and Vietnam for instance. I'm more or less in agreement with Jason, but a bit softer on "After Capitalism"'s model. “Liberalization” was handled especially poorly in Russia, but there can be little denying that the abandonment of large chunks of the command economy has done good for productive forces, if not all segments of the population, in China and Vietnam for instance. I’m more or less in agreement with Jason, but a bit softer on “After Capitalism”‘s model.

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