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	<title>Comments on: Two Cheers for Michael Moore</title>
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	<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/two-cheers-for-michael-moore</link>
	<description>// Culture. Consciousness. Critical Thought. //</description>
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		<title>By: Moore&#8217;s War of Position &#124; The Activist</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/two-cheers-for-michael-moore/comment-page-1#comment-74234</link>
		<dc:creator>Moore&#8217;s War of Position &#124; The Activist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=1991#comment-74234</guid>
		<description>[...] Or, conversely, we can just keep talking about where David Letterman’s penis has been and whether or not Barack Obama wants to kill grandma.&#160; I guess that is a moral choice.&#160;  see Chris Maisano’s (significantly better) review.&#160; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Or, conversely, we can just keep talking about where David Letterman’s penis has been and whether or not Barack Obama wants to kill grandma.&#160; I guess that is a moral choice.&#160;  see Chris Maisano’s (significantly better) review.&#160; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bhaskar</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/two-cheers-for-michael-moore/comment-page-1#comment-73808</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhaskar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 04:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=1991#comment-73808</guid>
		<description>Also let&#039;s not forget that practically we&#039;re basically in agreement about the struggles of today.  These more lofty political questions will only be actualized if we actually have some sort of mass movement.  The even more esoteric ones that involve the &quot;question of power&quot; will almost definitely not come to pass in our lifetimes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also let&#8217;s not forget that practically we&#8217;re basically in agreement about the struggles of today.  These more lofty political questions will only be actualized if we actually have some sort of mass movement.  The even more esoteric ones that involve the &#8220;question of power&#8221; will almost definitely not come to pass in our lifetimes.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Williams</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/two-cheers-for-michael-moore/comment-page-1#comment-73683</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 21:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=1991#comment-73683</guid>
		<description>Very well. I look forward to continued engagement. You&#039;ll have to excuse me for being naturally defensive. I was booted from my officer job in the last supposed &quot;multi-tendency left&quot; group I was in due to a stance I took on Israel (the ugly borderline anti-semitism raises its head) therefore I guess I (largely irrationally) tend to tiptoe around when voices to the left of me arrive.

Groovy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well. I look forward to continued engagement. You&#8217;ll have to excuse me for being naturally defensive. I was booted from my officer job in the last supposed &#8220;multi-tendency left&#8221; group I was in due to a stance I took on Israel (the ugly borderline anti-semitism raises its head) therefore I guess I (largely irrationally) tend to tiptoe around when voices to the left of me arrive.</p>
<p>Groovy.</p>
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		<title>By: Bhaskar Sunkara</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/two-cheers-for-michael-moore/comment-page-1#comment-73190</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhaskar Sunkara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 05:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=1991#comment-73190</guid>
		<description>Of course the left is and should be multi-tendency, but valuing the freedom of argument and discussion doesn&#039;t mean I think all analysis were created equally.   Or else what would be the point of staking out any specific position?   So we argue, debate, polemicize, etc, but we are showing respect for the views of others on the left, by not immediately ignoring or casting aside the views and actions of other groups on the left as irrelevant.  (a healthy movement would have more polemics imo). Objectively I think that the wide range of beliefs that I&#039;ve criticized are wrong or at least &quot;more wrong&quot; than what I&#039;ve espoused.  If arguing a minority position can be called intellectual vanguardism-- I&#039;m fine with that label, but in general my ideas have been born through praxis (actual activism at campus and local levels) and not in the ethereal spheres of academia.

Judging from the vast majority of your articles you  seem to be quite sharp so it would be a shame if you took honest, open engagement for a reason to &quot;stop talking&quot;.  I do think that you misunderstood some of the points that I&#039;ve and others have made. 

But yes, I have broadly criticized a wide range of politics.  Knee-jerk anti-imperialism that puts some in our movement in bed with mullahs is unacceptable in my view,  but equally so is the type of politics that has illusions about the nature of imperial power.  CCDS or CPUSA style relations with the Democratic Party is doing little to movement build, but neither is brick throwing and lifestylism on the otherside of the spectrum.  Dependency theory hogwash that doesn&#039;t acknowledge the role of market forces in lifting millions upon millions out of poverty in India and China doesn&#039;t sit well with me either.  I think the alternative I&#039;ve posed is relatively pragmatic and would make for more effective politics.  Am I expecting the majority of the working class to adopt a socialist program in my lifetime?  No.  I am sure that it is possible to build a relevant, minority pole of opposition.  I also would also contest the idea that I (or whoever you were addressing) were just inspired by a bunch of different people  My ideas are all &lt;em&gt;cohesive&lt;/em&gt; and build on just a few basic principles, they aren&#039;t unassailable of course and I reserve the right to be fundamentally wrong about the possibility of overcoming class society, but they are definitely not eclectic pluckings from interesting thinkers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course the left is and should be multi-tendency, but valuing the freedom of argument and discussion doesn&#8217;t mean I think all analysis were created equally.   Or else what would be the point of staking out any specific position?   So we argue, debate, polemicize, etc, but we are showing respect for the views of others on the left, by not immediately ignoring or casting aside the views and actions of other groups on the left as irrelevant.  (a healthy movement would have more polemics imo). Objectively I think that the wide range of beliefs that I&#8217;ve criticized are wrong or at least &#8220;more wrong&#8221; than what I&#8217;ve espoused.  If arguing a minority position can be called intellectual vanguardism&#8211; I&#8217;m fine with that label, but in general my ideas have been born through praxis (actual activism at campus and local levels) and not in the ethereal spheres of academia.</p>
<p>Judging from the vast majority of your articles you  seem to be quite sharp so it would be a shame if you took honest, open engagement for a reason to &#8220;stop talking&#8221;.  I do think that you misunderstood some of the points that I&#8217;ve and others have made. </p>
<p>But yes, I have broadly criticized a wide range of politics.  Knee-jerk anti-imperialism that puts some in our movement in bed with mullahs is unacceptable in my view,  but equally so is the type of politics that has illusions about the nature of imperial power.  CCDS or CPUSA style relations with the Democratic Party is doing little to movement build, but neither is brick throwing and lifestylism on the otherside of the spectrum.  Dependency theory hogwash that doesn&#8217;t acknowledge the role of market forces in lifting millions upon millions out of poverty in India and China doesn&#8217;t sit well with me either.  I think the alternative I&#8217;ve posed is relatively pragmatic and would make for more effective politics.  Am I expecting the majority of the working class to adopt a socialist program in my lifetime?  No.  I am sure that it is possible to build a relevant, minority pole of opposition.  I also would also contest the idea that I (or whoever you were addressing) were just inspired by a bunch of different people  My ideas are all <em>cohesive</em> and build on just a few basic principles, they aren&#8217;t unassailable of course and I reserve the right to be fundamentally wrong about the possibility of overcoming class society, but they are definitely not eclectic pluckings from interesting thinkers.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Schulman</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/two-cheers-for-michael-moore/comment-page-1#comment-73088</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Schulman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 23:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=1991#comment-73088</guid>
		<description>What I &quot;like to do,&quot; Andrew, is take the goal of socialism seriously and try to figure out what kind of political approach might actually have a shot of moving the U.S. (hell, the world) towards it, or which at least has a shot at building a mass movement of the working class which can achieve greater economic and social democracy here and elsewhere. If I critique other approaches -- most of which claim to be more &quot;realistic&quot; or &quot;pragmatic&quot; than my own -- it is because those approaches DO NOT WORK, HAVE NOT WORKED, AND WILL NOT WORK. 

Example: as I recall you had nice things to say about Andy Stern. But the Stern approach to expanding unionism in the U.S. is an absolute disaster -- it does nothing more than build a 21st century form of company unionism that does not even do the basic task of defending workers&#039; basic economic interests. To stand with Stern is to give up on the fight for a labor movement that does what a labor movement should do -- fight for the interests of workers. It is to give up on the fight for serious, &quot;social democratic&quot; reform -- which is what the SEIU did when it put unionizing HMOs above the need for single-payer health insurance in the U.S. It is to disavow the very real class struggle in favor of &quot;Team U.S.A.,&quot; workers and corporations working hand in hand against competitors around the world. It&#039;s just not socialist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I &#8220;like to do,&#8221; Andrew, is take the goal of socialism seriously and try to figure out what kind of political approach might actually have a shot of moving the U.S. (hell, the world) towards it, or which at least has a shot at building a mass movement of the working class which can achieve greater economic and social democracy here and elsewhere. If I critique other approaches &#8212; most of which claim to be more &#8220;realistic&#8221; or &#8220;pragmatic&#8221; than my own &#8212; it is because those approaches DO NOT WORK, HAVE NOT WORKED, AND WILL NOT WORK. </p>
<p>Example: as I recall you had nice things to say about Andy Stern. But the Stern approach to expanding unionism in the U.S. is an absolute disaster &#8212; it does nothing more than build a 21st century form of company unionism that does not even do the basic task of defending workers&#8217; basic economic interests. To stand with Stern is to give up on the fight for a labor movement that does what a labor movement should do &#8212; fight for the interests of workers. It is to give up on the fight for serious, &#8220;social democratic&#8221; reform &#8212; which is what the SEIU did when it put unionizing HMOs above the need for single-payer health insurance in the U.S. It is to disavow the very real class struggle in favor of &#8220;Team U.S.A.,&#8221; workers and corporations working hand in hand against competitors around the world. It&#8217;s just not socialist.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Williams</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/two-cheers-for-michael-moore/comment-page-1#comment-73049</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 19:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=1991#comment-73049</guid>
		<description>Actually, as someone whose obviously woefully behind on my analysis (or maybe over-analysis) of the contemporary left, maybe I should just stop talking. Maybe the intellectual wing of this movement isn&#039;t my place. I just hope that we don&#039;t get too bogged down in tossing about analysis of the left as opposed to trying to organize a movement that moves beyond a narrow ideology which apparently the working class will just inevitably pick up eventually (hopefully before we have a privatized school system).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, as someone whose obviously woefully behind on my analysis (or maybe over-analysis) of the contemporary left, maybe I should just stop talking. Maybe the intellectual wing of this movement isn&#8217;t my place. I just hope that we don&#8217;t get too bogged down in tossing about analysis of the left as opposed to trying to organize a movement that moves beyond a narrow ideology which apparently the working class will just inevitably pick up eventually (hopefully before we have a privatized school system).</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Williams</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/two-cheers-for-michael-moore/comment-page-1#comment-73047</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 19:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=1991#comment-73047</guid>
		<description>You seem to like to take socialism and chain it to your specific view of what our correct influences should be. On numerous occasions, you&#039;ve lambasted and dismissed a number of socialist perspectives, from reformist ideologies to Fabianism to sort of left-syndicalist perspectives. If it&#039;s your view that socialism should be chained to what you or your various intellectual inspirations have taken away from Marx as opposed to a multi-tendency left, then say so (Cornell West, as an avowed non-Marxist socialist, might take issue with that). I was under the impression this was a multi-tendency democratic socialist organization, not a journal of Marxist thought. It&#039;s great to acknowledge Marx as an inspiration, obviously he&#039;s a prime inspiration for socialists. But to tie our ideology so strictly to his vision and not concentrate instead of the myriad of social justice movements reeks of a sort of ivory-tower intellectual vanguardism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You seem to like to take socialism and chain it to your specific view of what our correct influences should be. On numerous occasions, you&#8217;ve lambasted and dismissed a number of socialist perspectives, from reformist ideologies to Fabianism to sort of left-syndicalist perspectives. If it&#8217;s your view that socialism should be chained to what you or your various intellectual inspirations have taken away from Marx as opposed to a multi-tendency left, then say so (Cornell West, as an avowed non-Marxist socialist, might take issue with that). I was under the impression this was a multi-tendency democratic socialist organization, not a journal of Marxist thought. It&#8217;s great to acknowledge Marx as an inspiration, obviously he&#8217;s a prime inspiration for socialists. But to tie our ideology so strictly to his vision and not concentrate instead of the myriad of social justice movements reeks of a sort of ivory-tower intellectual vanguardism.</p>
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		<title>By: Bhaskar Sunkara</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/two-cheers-for-michael-moore/comment-page-1#comment-72881</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhaskar Sunkara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:22:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=1991#comment-72881</guid>
		<description>[to preface i&#039;m not saying this is Andrew&#039;s argument, just one I&#039;ve heard repeated]

Also, it is false to say that ideology alienates leftists from a mass base or somehow pushes us further into the fringe.  If anything the broad politics of the contemporary liberal-left consists of knee jerk anti-imperialism that devolves into a mess of latent anti-semtism and crude anti-Americanism -- rampant precisely because we are in a post-political epoch and don&#039;t have any sort of broader context to put our actions and world events into.

A return to ideology and to the idea of mass politics if would be (at the very least -- relatively) mainstreaming for the radical left.  Turns to authoritarianism didn&#039;t happen because of ideology.  They happened because socialists all too often eschewed the idea of mass politics and building towards majoritarian support (what Harrington called &quot;visionary gradualism&quot;) and seized and held onto power anti-democratically (and lacked a democratic and materially efficient post-capitalist vision).  Ironically, I think that the current &quot;anti-authoritarian&quot; left is closer to mimicking these follies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[to preface i'm not saying this is Andrew's argument, just one I've heard repeated]</p>
<p>Also, it is false to say that ideology alienates leftists from a mass base or somehow pushes us further into the fringe.  If anything the broad politics of the contemporary liberal-left consists of knee jerk anti-imperialism that devolves into a mess of latent anti-semtism and crude anti-Americanism &#8212; rampant precisely because we are in a post-political epoch and don&#8217;t have any sort of broader context to put our actions and world events into.</p>
<p>A return to ideology and to the idea of mass politics if would be (at the very least &#8212; relatively) mainstreaming for the radical left.  Turns to authoritarianism didn&#8217;t happen because of ideology.  They happened because socialists all too often eschewed the idea of mass politics and building towards majoritarian support (what Harrington called &#8220;visionary gradualism&#8221;) and seized and held onto power anti-democratically (and lacked a democratic and materially efficient post-capitalist vision).  Ironically, I think that the current &#8220;anti-authoritarian&#8221; left is closer to mimicking these follies.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Schulman</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/two-cheers-for-michael-moore/comment-page-1#comment-72758</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Schulman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 04:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=1991#comment-72758</guid>
		<description>No ideology is more rigid than that which deliberately avoids &quot;theory&quot; or &quot;ideology.&quot; 

Don&#039;t want to &quot;parrot the correct line&quot;? Should we parrot the incorrect line instead? Should we not care whether we&#039;re right or not, or treat our political perspectives as if they weren&#039;t important? Shouldn&#039;t avowed socialists care about whether or not the political positions we take are consistent with the cause we&#039;re supposedly advancing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No ideology is more rigid than that which deliberately avoids &#8220;theory&#8221; or &#8220;ideology.&#8221; </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t want to &#8220;parrot the correct line&#8221;? Should we parrot the incorrect line instead? Should we not care whether we&#8217;re right or not, or treat our political perspectives as if they weren&#8217;t important? Shouldn&#8217;t avowed socialists care about whether or not the political positions we take are consistent with the cause we&#8217;re supposedly advancing?</p>
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		<title>By: Bhaskar Sunkara</title>
		<link>http://theactivist.org/blog/two-cheers-for-michael-moore/comment-page-1#comment-72737</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhaskar Sunkara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 03:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theactivist.org/blog/?p=1991#comment-72737</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure if that concern is applicable to our times.  We&#039;ve had decades of marginalization, and the bankruptcy of many of the core ideas of the left--- namely traditional social democracy and state socialism.  Intellectually we&#039;ve had the rise of postmodernism and the deadening of critical opposition that went along with the attack on the metanarrative (and more generally the legitimacy of communities of &quot;belief&quot;).  Our &quot;left&quot; today is largely post-political and muddled in identity politicking.  Though our bewildering stances on the rise of Islamism and general lack of any sort of emancipatory vision begs the question-- do we deserve the label at all.  Organization and the reaffirmation of theory is something I think we need a lot &lt;em&gt;more&lt;/em&gt; of today.  Genuine workers movements have always been multi-tendency, but I think we would be a lot better off if the left adhered to a few common principles. 

On the brightside, I think DSA is a fine model for what an embryo of a good movement of opposition should look like.  We do everything pretty well proportional to our size.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure if that concern is applicable to our times.  We&#8217;ve had decades of marginalization, and the bankruptcy of many of the core ideas of the left&#8212; namely traditional social democracy and state socialism.  Intellectually we&#8217;ve had the rise of postmodernism and the deadening of critical opposition that went along with the attack on the metanarrative (and more generally the legitimacy of communities of &#8220;belief&#8221;).  Our &#8220;left&#8221; today is largely post-political and muddled in identity politicking.  Though our bewildering stances on the rise of Islamism and general lack of any sort of emancipatory vision begs the question&#8211; do we deserve the label at all.  Organization and the reaffirmation of theory is something I think we need a lot <em>more</em> of today.  Genuine workers movements have always been multi-tendency, but I think we would be a lot better off if the left adhered to a few common principles. </p>
<p>On the brightside, I think DSA is a fine model for what an embryo of a good movement of opposition should look like.  We do everything pretty well proportional to our size.</p>
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